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This story was first published in KCUR's Creative Adventure newsletter. I was hired as a cheese grader. And so they try to hire more cheese graders. You'll receive your first newsletter soon! Decades of propping up the dairy industryby buying up surplus. MALONE: Bob Aschebrock spent 30 years as a USDA cheese inspector. . Demand for dairy in the U.S. has plummeted 42 percent since 1975, but that hasnt stopped American farmers from producing more and more of it. The United States Postal Service and the United States Environmental Protection Agency lease spaces within SubTropolis, the United States Postal Service for its collectible stamp operations and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for their Region-7 Training and Logistics Center. And the Ronald Reagan team was stuck dealing with these caves full of cheese. ANDY NOVAKOVIC: Exactly. We know there are a few places where youre allowed to explore public caves, but theyre sometimes hard to find or access. But I am in favor of giving farmers an equal break. KCUR serves the Kansas City region with breaking news and powerful storytelling. Unfortunately, your shopping bag is empty. This is, you know, important to me. The National Archives' Central Plains regional archives is moving into the heart of Kansas City's cultural and historic area. It is estimated that Kansas has more than 700 and caves, and almost 350 are in the Red Hills. The massive. DUFFIN: In the pantheon of milk-related economic disasters, there is one that rises above the rest. In 2016, dairy farmers resorted to simply dumping 43 million gallons of milk down the drain. Limestone mine in the bluffs above the Missouri River in Kansas City, MO, US, Learn how and when to remove this template message, United States Environmental Protection Agency, National Archives and Records Administration, "SubTropolis | Industrial Space for Lease in Kansas City", "Bloomberg.com 2015-02-04 Welcome to Subtropolis The Business Complex Buried Under Kansas City", "Archives.gov 2018-02-26 Kansas City, MO Federal Records Center", SubTropolis Technology Center home site (Hunt Midwest), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SubTropolis&oldid=1140599869, Buildings and structures in Kansas City, Missouri, Articles lacking in-text citations from January 2020, Short description is different from Wikidata, Wikipedia cave articles with unreferenced coordinates, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:12. DUFFIN: The USDA figured out that if they paid about 39 bucks for a 40-pound block of cheese, then it would have this ripple effect. PHIL HARTMAN: (As character) Matt, we're ready for you. OnlyInYourState may earn compensation through affiliate links in this article. About 3.2 acres of available space are added each year as active mining continues. More Info Directions. Have you seen these caves before? [2], The mine naturally maintains temperatures between 65 and 70F (18 and 21C) year-round. But as Kansas Citians began to rely more on buses and their own vehicles in the 1940s and 1950s, the 8th Street tunnel ceased operations. give poor Americans a slice of the cheese surplus., exactly popular with all of its recipients. DUFFIN: OK. MALONE: Novakovic says the government could have destroyed the cheese. And the resulting demand just pushes the price of milk up. There are these massive columns, and it looks like something the "Lord Of The Rings" dwarves built. MALONE: The government cheese caves started to empty out. DUFFIN: Hello. Kenny Malone hails from Meadville, PA where the zipper was invented, where Clark Gables mother is buried and where, in 2007, a wrecking ball broke free from a construction site, rolled down North Main Street and somehow wound up inside the trunk of a Ford Taurus sitting at a red light. The U.S. has too much cheese 1.4 billion pounds of it to be exact. See. Well, sort of. MALONE: So if you wanted to sell cheese to the government, Bob would show up with this, like, hollow rod called a cheese trier. MALONE: By this point, Jimmy Carter was out of office. ASCHEBROCK: And that's what you grade. This little-known cave area in Kansas is the perfect opportunity to explore something that many Kansans might not have heard of before. Have you fallen in love with amateur spelunking? Through the years, Kansas Citians have utilized a number of buried passageways for transportation, illegal (at the time) or otherwise. This will be about 3/4 to a cup of water. And in order to do this, they have to be willing to buy all of the cheese that anybody wants to sell them at this price. It certainly was on the edge of that. MALONE: The idea was that if you give this food to people who suffer from food insecurity, then maybe it is going to go to somebody who wasn't going to buy cheese anyway so you're not hurting the market as much. In fact, it has trademarked the phrase "World's Largest Underground Business Complex." MALONE: The story of government cheese has become a kind of parable of how government intervention in markets can have this, like, butterfly effect. And though OMalleys looks normal from the outside, the inside tells another story. as well as other partner offers and accept our, http://eapcontent.ap.org/jpg/2015/20150914/16/be46cf305fa20029820f6a70670013cf.jpg?contentid=be46cf305fa20029820f6a70670013cf/fmt=jpg/role=Preview/reldt=2015-09-14T16:35:59/media=Photo/recordid=a772a7d9f93f488487ec5a05e64f976a/itemid=a772a7d9f93f488487ec5a05e64f976a/objfilename=preview.jpg/authToken=eNotikEKwyAURE%2bkzNf4NQuhV4lWwUVj0Ei78PC10FnM48Gb6eNZG%2bsIO4OwRg4zFh%2fSxjFrCJMPJQC1C6eQBR8WbFemY56j%2b1jPu5Uw7tr6I4xeztTX9fJMTcb6mtfb%2f5UMZrk8b5LAkn4k8wXMhif%2b&token=1442512801_9D4E1758BD6D116C2F559647389B3542, NOW WATCH: Incredible video inside Hang Son Doong the largest cave in the world. MALONE: Dan Callahan worked here in the 1970s and says one day, the U.S. government rented a ton of cave space, and a ton of cheddar cheese started to show up. A grader, where you do quality checks on it. Help yourself. What would the government do if you drove this into downtown Washington and said, here you go? To get some of that cheese off the market, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has spent $47.1 million buying up roughly 22. That number, though, pales in. Well, its called SubTropolis, is owned by Hunt Midwest yes, the same Hunt family that owns the Kansas City Chiefs and is wide enough to hold 42 Arrowhead Stadiums. Theres even a train track winding through the colossal complex, and many, many exit signs. NOVAKOVIC: So the way this program works, literally, is the federal government puts out a piece of paper that says, we will buy as much cheese, butter or nonfat dry milk as you want to sell to us at these prices. A NASA employee needing an area to test sensitive navigational instruments was among the first official cave occupants. Leading up to the Second World War, dairy was used in this very patriotic waystrengthening our bodies to fight the war.. CHRIS FARLEY: (As Matt Foley) I'm here to tell you that you're going to end up eating a steady diet of government cheese and living in a van down by the river. Though its more a part of Midtown than Downtown, the space once known as Deans Downtown Underground is definitely down there. ANDY NOVAKOVIC: Oh, yeah. Cheese Caves Myth: Debunked. NOVAKOVIC: It was pretty hard to predict that it would get as bad as it got. JIMMY CARTER: Now, although I am a farmer, I'm not in favor of guaranteeing farmers a profit. MALONE: So to raise the price of milk, the government basically opened up the world's largest cheese shop - you know, and powdered milk and butter, too. MALONE: And I'm Kenny Malone. UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The great cheese giveaway began today in California. DUFFIN: It was 1976. ASCHEBROCK: Will eat any cheese. Like SubTropolis, the strangely sterile space is separated by humungous numbered pillars. ASCHEBROCK: But then we had the issue of storing the stuff. It's only about a 3-inch-in-diameter hole. Since that requires capital, the dairy industry starts consolidating, says Andrea Wiley, author of Re-Imagining Milk. Like so many things in American public policy, this traces to the New Deal, but actually goes even a little bit before that, says Andrew Novakovi, a professor of Agricultural Economics at Cornell University. MALONE: This must be a common confusion in the industry. DUFFIN: But that does not work for milk because milk starts going bad the minute it comes out of the cow. You took away my customers. Ashley Day. NOVAKOVIC: Exactly. There is currently about $85 million earmarked to buy dairy and distribute it to places like schools and food banks. A large portion is also owned by companies, who . ASCHEBROCK: Now, I'm not sure if you know - if you've ever seen a 500-pound steel barrel of cheese. MALONE: I'm Kenny Malone. That's because it maintains the proper humidity that cheese needs to ripen to peak flavor and texture, just like a real cheese cave. Working underground is no big deal to me, Peters says in the interview. MALONE: Right - very, very expensive cheese. This area is also a great place to go hiking, camping, and fishing. DUFFIN: And this is what people will remember as government cheese because when a government starts to give away hundreds of millions of pounds of cheese, people notice. Cave cheese is any cheese that is ripened within a cave or cave-like environment, where consistently low temperatures and high levels of humidity are perfect for supporting the chemical reactions that take place in the cheese aging process. Heap the flour on your countertop and make a well in the center. And thus, you won't be flooding anyone's market. YOU CAN SIGN UP HERE. Yes, that is a lot of cheese. Posted on June 16, 2022 by June 16, 2022 by UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: The great cheese giveaway began today in California. I get in my car in my garage at home and drive underground here, so its all temperature controlled. NOVAKOVIC: (Laughter) Well, that was the unintended consequence that was fun, but the bite came in terms of how much it cost for that opportunity. [4]. MALONE: And so our country has a tradition of programs to help farmers. We are not a government facility, but rather a multi-generational family business . And before that, he was a reporter for his friend T.C. Sign up for notifications from Insider! And you can drive your car right into it. Kenny Malone is a correspondent for NPR's Planet Moneypodcast. It was this spectacle of millions of pounds of expensive cheese being processed and given away that created a popular cultural icon and an example of bad government spending. MALONE: This is one of those slow-moving train wrecks that you can see coming from a mile away. Roanoke Cave . MALONE: Even if that bite just looks like some delicious cheese? DUFFIN: This is why there is also a community of people who are still obsessed with government cheese - Internet chat boards trying to find something comparable, restaurants claiming they have a recipe for it. It was - some of it almost taste like natural cheddar. But their purpose has shifted over the years. MALONE: Now, to be fair, that's probably not enough to start filling caves again. There you go. NOVAKOVIC: It's really hard to balance what you want to do socially or politically with what you can get away with economically. MALONE: This footage is amazing - just massive crowds of people being handed bricks of cheese. The way it melts for a hamburger - there is nothing better. I'm Karen Duffin. These are the 13 weirdest places you can possibly go in Missouri. NOVAKOVIC: As you can imagine, the cheese company that's in the business of selling cheese is going to say - hey, what's the deal here? The federal government has been storing paperwork in these caves for nearly 25 years. Even after the demand for dairy declined in the wake of World War II, the program functioned reasonably well for years. Currently, more than 6,000,000 square feet (560,000 m2) is occupied and 8,000,000 square feet (740,000 m2) are available for future expansion. I am in an old, converted limestone mine. DAN CALLAHAN: No, I've never thought about it. Born and raised Kansan, Clarisa has lived in both tiny towns and cities during their time here in the Sunflower State. If youve been in the cheeky, sophisticated Campground bar, youve set foot where the original J. Rieger & Co. building stood. No, it doesnt have to do with the disastrous flooding experienced there in 1903 and 1951. With the onset of wartime rationing and shortages leading into the Second World War, there were growing fears about the long-term stability of the United States food supply. Government cheese, as the orange blocks of commodity cheese came to be called, wasnt exactly popular with all of its recipients. And the United States Postal Service's Philatelic Sales Divison, the national distribution center for . There was an incredible press conference where Agriculture Secretary John Block went before reporters and held up a giant hunk of cheese like it was a national emergency. They actually had to rent out space in multiple caves. Follow us on Twitter to get the latest on the world's hidden wonders. Thanks for listening. MALONE: The Trump administration announced that in order to help farmers being hurt by Trump's tariffs, the government may be making some food purchases again. This was generally the approach that we would use to support other kinds of farm industries. The Washington Post reported that the interest and storage costs for all that dairy was costing around $1 million a day. Syed E. Hasan, a geosciences professor emeritus at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, said the "very pure" limestone was ideal for cement production to shore up the city's rapid expansion at that time. And as the historic structure theyd purchased was being repaired, Andy Rieger and crew found an eight-foot high, 400-foot-long tunnel beneath it. Long situated in a warehouse-style facility far from the major business district of Kansas . There were 40-pound blocks and 500-pound barrels. When maple syrup supplies run low, Canada taps into its strategic reserve. The cheese came in handy for Ronald Reagan's "government cheese" program, which released 30 million pounds of the lactose-laden dairy product (paywall) to any state that applied. MALONE: And then within five years, the government was spending billions of dollars filling caves with cheese that they could not get rid of fast enough. ASCHEBROCK: Well, I think cheese eating is better than dating sometimes. Probably the cheapest and most practical thing would be to dump it in the ocean., Instead, they decided to jettison 30 million pounds of it into welfare programs and school lunches through the Temporary Emergency Food Assistance Program. It sounds amazing. But that does not mean the government had fixed the problem. So just wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling CALLAHAN: Floor-to-ceiling - and then as you kept filling it, you just worked your way right back out. MALONE: But this is America. Gastro Obscura covers the worlds most wondrous food and drink. ASCHEBROCK: I'm not running down Velveeta, but I'll tell you, the government processed loaf was 10 times - 100 times better. How do we - how do we get this cat out of the tree? Thank you! Uncover the finest, most undercover experiences in Kansas City. CARTER: But I am in favor of giving farmers an equal break. Although there are around 1.4 billion pounds of excess cheese in the form of large wheels kept in cold storage limestone caves hundreds of feet below the ground outside of Springfield, Missouri just off Interstate 435, it is not all controlled by the government (only about 300 million pounds). No? Although other facilities like SubTropolis exist, there are none on the same such scale. To do so, however, required a serious upfront investment. The third cave is much smaller and contains a natural spring that often sends clean water running over the ground. Limestone caves in the Kansas City area have been used to store immigration records for years. Jimmy Carter's campaign promise to help farmers in 1976 not only gave us government cheese but also milk mustaches. DUFFIN: This is a basic supply-and-demand problem. That was pretty good. MALONE: OK. OK. We're not here to make fun of Velveeta. MALONE: He and his colleagues are drowning in cheese. Born from tragedy, the remote national park is bringing tourism and other changes. Follow us on social media to add even more wonder to your day. You just have to follow us on Instagram. You wont be bored on this one-of-a-kind road trip! The 43,000,000 square feet structure is owned by Americold and is primarily used for food production. MALONE: Are you pretty annoying to eat cheese with? This one-of-a-kind display showcases a wide variety of hair art, historic hair pieces, and more. A miner from Colorado named Charles Griffee excavated these caves in the 1880s, but the land was later bought by the Faris family. Missouri Valley Special Collections, Kansas City Public Library, Kansas City, Missouri. Emily Standlee is a freelance writer at KCUR and a national award-winning essayist. NOVAKOVIC: The federal government wouldn't have the foggiest idea what to do with tanker loads of milk. DUFFIN: By the early 1980s, the dairy support program was costing taxpayers around $2 billion a year. These limestone caverns arent the only channels running under the city. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MARTHA & SNOOP'S POTLUCK DINNER PARTY"). And the European Union has a long, scandalous history of accumulating butter mountains, wine lakes, and milk lakesthe latter of which consisted of vast quantities of skim milk powder housed in warehouses in Germany, Belgium, and France. While the government-owned cheese hoards of the 1970s and 80s are largely a thing of the past, the U.S. has still never really figured out what to do with its excess dairy. In fact, he remembers the exact room it went into. Since 1916, when James Lewis Kraft patented American cheese, the U.S. had the technology to create a cheese product that could last for years. Buoyed by items like Wendys dual Double Melt sandwich concept and Taco Bells steak quesadilla, the organization helped boost cheese sales by more than 30 million pounds. Government buys more cheese. Here's a few you should know, A guide to discovering Kansas City's public art installations. Kraft Cheese Cave, Springfield. DUFFIN: And when news gets out that the government is filling a cave with cheese, the press goes nuts because this is exactly what people think of when they think of a government program gone awry. does st martin parish have school tomorrow. ASCHEBROCK: There is a bung - what they call a bunghole up on the top. Like anything you grow up with and then lose subsequently access to, government cheese is parked in a prominent spot in the memories of its former consumers. https://bit.ly/2CdCooV Theorists, did you know the government is hiding caves full of cheese from us? Are there any fascinating abandoned buildings in Missouri? As a busy mother of one crazy kid, two cats, and two geckos, they write whenever there is spare time. In 1949, the Agricultural Act allowed a government agency to buy up dairy products to stabilize prices. DUFFIN: Nevertheless, when Carter got elected, he goes all in. It is an enormous artificial cave situated above the Missouri River. MALONE: And you can taste all of those things in a piece of cheese? Have you been inside? DUFFIN: But maybe government cheese's most surreal moment came on a television show where Martha Stewart cooks stuff with Snoop Dog. Very, very expensive cheese. Many tenants at . MARTHA STEWART: Where do you buy government cheese? ASCHEBROCK: Nope. DUFFIN: Lever 1, lower the supply - you could do what they do in Canada and say - hey, no more milk - you can only produce so much milk. Now heres a story that comes full circle. Love Kansas? In fact, it has trademarked the phrase Worlds Largest Underground Business Complex. It was developed by late Kansas City Chiefs owner Lamar Hunt via Hunt Midwest Real Estate Development, Inc. Read on to learn more about the largest underground business complex in Missouri. MALONE: One of the ways Carter proposed giving farmers an equal break was to raise the price of milk by about 6 cents per gallon, which was kind of a lot at the time. And what percentage of economists would you say are able to milk a cow by hand? The mine naturally maintains temperatures between 65 and 70 F year-round, making it a great space for a lot of different types of businesses. They believe it was once part of the historic Heim Brewery, whose East Bottoms bottling plant theyd been renovating. A native Midwesterner with a love for family, friends, and learning new things. 's homemade newspaper, Neighborhood News. So the thing that the government was concerned about is what's called commercial displacement. With the economy spiraling, President Jimmy Carter promised to raise the collapsing price of milk, saying, Im giving dairy farmers an equal break., In the late 1970s, when energy prices went crazy and there was this unbelievable period of inflation, things got a little out of control, Novakovi says. Using Kansas City's underground caves to age cheese could be boon to region's cheese makers It still didn't seem right but I went ahead and drove into the cave. I mean, there was all kinds of tricks that you - that we had to be looking for. We hope so. The USDA helped "cut the glut" then by purchasing $20 million worth of fresh cheese. 1 By Kimberlee N. Ried Enlarge Plan for the National Archives at Kansas City. MALONE: Many listeners may remember "Saturday Night Live's" Matt Foley, as played by Chris Farley, the world's worst motivational speaker. It was a big enough number that it sounded like one of these campaign promises that you really didn't expect they would actually fulfill. Want more adventures like this? MALONE: The government is creating a price floor. Lets just call it tunnel vision. In fact, if you see my shape, you would know that I eat enough to keep the tank full. The 55,000 sq ft underground storage facility is the world's largest underground business complex. Specifically, the federal government had 560 million pounds of cheese, most of it stored in vast subterranean storage facilities. He says the government was buying powdered milk, butter and cheddar cheese - only grade-A cheddar, though. MALONE: Who's got time for dating when you're traveling around eating cheese everywhere? MALONE: Even if that bite just looks like some delicious cheese. The 55,000,000-square-foot, 1,100-acre underground storage facility is believed to be the worlds largest site of its kind. And it's the most government packaging you will ever see - just, like, brown cardboard, some black USDA stamps on it. You may even encounter some paranormal activity while youre exploring. And so they pass a law saying that they want the price of milk to go up automatically every six months. NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. You need a hacksaw. Lamar Hunt, the late founder of the Kansas City Chiefs, is perhaps the most well-known of the cave developers. There's something instinctive in us that makes us want to leave a mark on the world. As with any commodity, the demand for dairy fluctuates, yet the nature of dairy production makes it challenging to quickly ramp up or down production in response. DUFFIN: But the problem, Andy says, was that a lot of this was not easy-to-give-away cheese. MALONE: Again, our dairy economist Andy Novakovic. Imagine watching lines of people wait around to be handed a giant block of moldy, bright orange cheese. Missouri has more than 7,000 caves under its ground, though fewer than 20 are easily accessible to most people. Beneath the bar, theres a hollow place in the wall that looks to have been covered up. The surplus dairy products now in storage have a market value of $3 billion. NOVAKOVIC: To persuade farmers to produce less. Known for its hiking trails (with Missouri River views), wineries and the McCormick distillery, Weston is also home to OMalleys, the oldest bar in Missouri. Nevertheless, dairy surpluses still very much exist. It is more than a food that. One of Kansas City's best-loved parks is home to a secret cave No one knows why the cave in Roanoke Park was walled offor why, after decades, it opened last month. Out of 25 buildings, a whopping 24 were saloons. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MARTHA AND SNOOP'S POTLUCK DINNER PARTY"). And then on the other side, the government tried to replace some of their artificial demand for milk with new real demand for milk. Let us know. Offer subject to change without notice. But the bite came in terms of how much it cost for that opportunity. Share your experiences in the comment section below. While many of the caves feature paved roads and utilities, other areas consist of dirt floors and uncontrolled entrances. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE"). I can tell you what we had to reject it for - flat, bitter, yeasty, malty, old milk, fruity MALONE: That sounds lovely. Currently 5,000,000 square feet is occupied and 10,000,000 square feet are "improved.". DUFFIN: Like, hey, people of America, wouldn't you like to drink more milk? It can fit a train car. Like, are you the most picky cheese-eater in your group of friends? newsletter brings you a new way to explore the Kansas City region. Expand All. NOVAKOVIC: You can imagine the cheese company that's in the business of selling cheese is going to say, hey, what's the deal here? A cave (also known as a cavern) is a common terrain feature that generates in the Overworld and the Nether. Lever 2, more demand - you could try to convince the public that they want to drink more milk. 1. DUFFIN: Finding a market for this stuff is in fact a pretty fascinating puzzle because getting rid of government surplus anything is an economically tricky thing. BOB ASCHEBROCK: Yes. (Dean Russell/Here & Now) This article is more than 4 years old. SubTropolis is a 55,000,000-square-foot (5,100,000m2), 1,100-acre (4.5km2) artificial cave in the bluffs above the Missouri River in Kansas City, Missouri, United States, that is claimed to be the world's largest underground storage facility. CALLAHAN: So you'd be - it's 17 feet, 16 feet. The Trump administration says today it will make an estimated $12 billion in government assistance available. Do you or does someone you know work at SubTropolis? Start with this beginner's guide to the neighborhood, Kansas City's new airport terminal carries on the legacy of a 10-year-old who fought for inclusivity, Local public health officials fear a Kansas bill would undercut work to contain diseases, A federal lawsuit against Missouri's 'dysfunctional' SNAP call center has gotten bigger. Hogwarts, who? Blackwell Motors showcases a variety of fiberglass animals, and people come from all around just to see them. We depend on ad revenue to craft and curate stories about the worlds hidden wonders. We can't find a market for it. And he says getting rid of caves full of grade-A government cheese was an economically tricky issue. NOVAKOVIC: (Laughter) That was the unintended consequence that was fun. Each year, several foot races are run in the cave system. Specifically, the federal government had 560 million pounds of cheese, most of it stored in vast subterranean storage facilities. glimpse into the void but a modern-day viewing is near-impossible. SNOOP DOGG: (Rapping) And we ghetto like a [expletive] hot buttered toast in the mornin' with some government cheese. UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: The retail price of milk is going up more than 6 cents a gallon - soon. MALONE: You were hired as someone to show up with a metal thing ASCHEBROCK: Not - no, no, no. warehouses in Germany, Belgium, and France. This restaurant serves wood-fired fare served in a natural cave with a live spring. These days, units are available for business leasing or to store items that would benefit from the particular climate control found underground. Today, the National Archives has four underground facilities. Back in 2018, The New York Times did a profile on Gene Peters, chief executive of Rosnet, a restaurant software company out of Parkville, Missouri. government cheese caves kansas citysr latch using nor gate truth table. The New York Times declared that the bill would give poor Americans a slice of the cheese surplus.. DUFFIN: It is this moment that government cheese truly enters the American bloodstream. Basically the dairy industry is looking to expand its market and the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) is looking to expand the agricultural economy and they become very intertwined., It helped that the burgeoning field of nutrition science promoted dairy products as essential for both adults and children. The government eventually tired of being involved in this . The government would buy as much milk as it took to move that price. And they're like, we need more cheese graders. When the Trump administration decided to pay subsidies to farmers hurt by trade, it reminded NPR's Planet Money podcast team about the time another president tried to help farmers. MALONE: Karen's doing the dance.